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Where do I even start with this? My thoughts are swirling around like crazy, so apologies in advance if this comes out all haphazardly...

Currently sitting at the kitchen table fantasizing about driving to the local gas station, getting a pint of ice cream, and inhaling the entire thing while I watch a movie in my car. Maybe a gallon. Fighting the urge 1) because I bought 300 spider-infested bricks today (long story) and haven't unloaded them from my vehicle, 2) I'm trying to avoid eating my feelings (BED is a stupid bitch and I hate her), and 3) I suspect if my H wakes up and can't find me, it'll send him into a panic, and I don't want to do that to him.

But fuck do I long for it anyway!

I already drank at dinner because I couldn't stand to sit there in sober silence while my H was being broody. I almost never drink, and certainly not as a form of escapism. And there's a tiny bottle of Fireball whispering to me from our little bar in the corner that would go down real easy in my leftover horchata... I shouldn't. I already brushed my teeth, after all. I should just take a melatonin and try to pass out. Melatonin doesn't make you fat, at least. But it does give me nightmares, so maybe not the best idea either. Can't even go out to the run and pet a sleepy chicken because I'm literally fucking allergic to mosquito bites

All I did was ask him to go to MC with me. I thought he would be willing, since a month or two ago he said he would. I declined to tell him why I wanted to go-- there's just some issues that are unresolved that I wanna work through, and I didn't want to fall back into the same patterns we've been falling into by listing them ahead of MC. I didn't expect it would turn into a massive argument.

I didn't know it would throw a wrench into his work day; I just asked immediately after I got off my session with my IC, who had recommended it, because it didn't want the request to fall by the wayside, as so often is the case. But he started spiraling, because he believes I'm preparing a "case" against him to present to the therapist, and he feels like he's going in blind. Like it's some kind of sick power move instead of just trying to avoid the kind of arguments that leaves me frustrated with our communication and the issues still somehow unresolved. (I guess that's what I fucking get for bringing a powerpoint to MC last time. Oh look, if it isn't the consequences of your actions, Morbs...! But that was so long ago, and I didn't understand back then! ) I told him that I wanted to go to work through issues with him, like a team, because I think we just need a little bit of outside help, and that I'm willing to go in with an open mind to see where I might be contributing to our issues, but that didn't seem to help.

He said this is coming out of the blue, and the last time he thought everything was just fine and I didn't, I made plans to fuck someone else. I had replied "Good news. This time I'm seeking MC instead of trying to fuck someone else." But wouldn't you know, somehow that wasn't reassuring. Neither was "There's nothing I want to bring up in MC that you don't already know about." He had posited that the only way for his anxiety to be relieved was if I told him what we were going there to discuss. Which is not exactly fair, is it?

And like, I'm trying to be less codependent, right? So I was holding this boundary, and while I hear his feelings and I care about them, I can't fix them for him. I can do my best to reassure him that I'm not preparing a case against him or game planning how I want to present myself to "get an A" in therapy or that there's not some other shoe that's going to drop, but with regards to the anxiety that remains after that, he's got to self-soothe. Or if he can't self-soothe, talk to his IC about it... And I was trying to say as much, but what came out after he said "The timing of this in the middle of my work day is so unfair and I'm incredibly triggered" was "I don't think that's my responsibility." Which naturally he mistranslated into "I don't gaf about your feelings."🤦

We talked about it more this morning and I was able to offer clarification, but he was insistent I was treating him poorly, that I was giving him "an ultimatum" about going to MC (even though I didn't have an answer when he asked what would happen if he said he wasn't going...?) and he kept badgering me (it felt like "bullying" but let's just say "badgering") to break the boundary... I thought I was getting through to him about why breaking it to relieve his discomfort would be putting his feelings above my own and how that relates to codependence, and that we were getting somewhere productive with the conversation, but maybe not? Because he came home still in a terrible mood (which I was trying my fucking damnest not to let dampen my mood, because, you know, codependency...)

He didn't even want sex. I feel selfish for wanting it, but it's been several nights without it and I'm like hankering, dude. He just went to sleep on the couch with the dog. (She looked so fucking pleased with herself when he put his arm around her!) I had to fight her to cuddle up next to him, and then when he noticed, he just turned away.

I was crushed. I'm spiraling. I'm not here to bash him or anything; I just don't really have anyone else to talk to about this except for this community... I feel so lonely. I don't know how we got here. I need help separating out what's a reasonable feeling and what isn't, I think, and to figure out how to sit with this and self-sooth in a health way until the appointment on Monday...

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 4:23 AM, Saturday, July 18th]

I remember the time when sleeping was difficult, and how disturbing was the silence when thoughts where stirring and you realize that there is n one to speak, not just because they sleep, it was deeper, but the fact they were sleeping removed even the feeling of "maybe there’ll be a change to connect and talk ". And suddenly the silence got deeper and the minutes longer.

I recall the need to do anything not to sit in that silence where the unspoken voices felt louder.

It’s day here when it’s night there, I think I would have loved to have this place back then, where the time zone difference would be a plus instead of feeling like jet lag. (Or you need to spend time in the night to follow up ).

I don’t know if it’s comforting but I think I understand what some of the reasons for your wake are.

Since couple of times I had the impression some feedback it is not always welcome, let me just go and say ahead this:

- It is only my intuition, i am responding because there’s no stop sign and because I can relate somewhat to the situation and I think I am seeing some clues about what is happening.

- It’s not a judgement or there’s no shadow reason behind it, and if the feedback is not welcome it is enough to say that once, I will not be engaging if it stirs you more or its not useful.

- To be safer about everyone else emotions I will try not to respond or clarify unless asked by you the OP, no matter how it land, it’s received, or the understanding of what I share gets a different attribution of intention than the one intention behind what I will write.

This is the only clarification I will offer ahead, not to sidetrack your space.

——

I have a feeling that you have an unmet need to be understood.

You feel that you’re making effort to reach out and allow others to peek into your inner emotional world. And you are trying to figure out how to show that part with the person you’re opening up to focusing on the important emotions you are experiencing right now, without being distracted by other things that they may find inside.

I think so because I have the impression you are trying to find a method to come across without being misjudged. You offer many explanations and details that might superficially look like rambling, confusing and at times contradictory.

I sense what you are trying to do is provide a full emotional context of how you feel to explain from where you feel the current leading emotions might stem from.

I would say you are trying to learn and master the language of emotions, and when that feels misunderstood you feel hurt because the connection you are trying to establish feels rejected and this kind of communication where you truly open yourself leaves you vulnerable. And that might be outside of your usual historical comfort zone.

I have the impression that you are trying to parse your husband’s emotional state before allowing you to disclose your feelings.

What I mean by that, I imagine you are observing him and trying to figure out how safely a communication between your feeling and his empathy can be received.

I obviously don’t know if you are addressing him directly when you feel emotional unrest because I only get a sense from what you share. I am telling you my intuition is that you tend to probe his emotional state first, assessing where you stand right now (as in, you know your emotions and you try decode his, through observation before engaging). I feel like there’s a lot of work you invest in finding the correct communication before that communication actually occurs.

Hopefully if I use the word "gently" you won’t take offense, so gently: my impression is you are somewhat walking on eggshells when you feel the need to connect with your partner about your emotional needs.

I sense fear of misunderstanding and rejection (not of you, of the emotions you express), and I wonder if that’s not self sabotaging your attempts.

You explain a lot to avoid being misunderstood and misjudged, you utilize a form you curated ahead to trace a path towards his empathy, using curated form and language that you think it will help avoid any emotional land mines you believe you have identified ahead through observation. In short I imagine you put effort in preparing for the conversation, possibly playing it in your mind before it happens, and you follow through that schema when you gather the confidence to speak.

If it’s playing as expected then no problem. But if there’s an unexpected reaction that throws you out of pace, and you’re left in "improvisation land", where there’s no time to reflect enough about the message form without "withdrawing and regrouping " - which could feel as retreat and avoidance or dismissal to your partner - so you have to resort to "learned language " to get out of this pickle without neither of you feeling hurt.

I wonder if this is resonating with what actually you experience: did you notice if when you are met with an empasse, you tend to resort to "therapy language " to mitigate the effects of misunderstandings?

I ask so, because I think therapy has a very specific language designed to help people through emotional chaos and help them find their way, and this language uses a sort of "codified detachment " that is useful for leading a patient through their emotions into awareness.

However I suspect the same kind of language that works for therapy and makes you feel better, can have a different or opposite effect when it is used in "partner to partner connection " than when it is used in "therapist- patient communication ".

I say this because our nerve systems are usually very sensitive to associate what makes us feel better with safety. If a specific technique or language Carrie’s with positive outcomes in therapy, we might unconsciously associate that with relief, and we might adopt it outside it’s intended environment, unintentionally, but we might do it.

A thing that I feel it’s important when you are dealing with trauma and pain between partners, is this: "I am not your therapist, I am your partner". This is how I am usually expressing it.

What I mean by it is that I will not approach you, my partner, with curated or codified language because that’s helpful in different settings.

I approach you directly, through the deeper connection that we share, communicating feelings and emotions in a straight manner as honestly as it can get. Even if I think that can be painful, if it’s felt and causes distress and discomfort, it must be spoken and delivered with its raw emotional load. I

think that has a better chance to land and seed in, even if it’s first reception triggers pain or defensiveness. Eventually it can be helpful to add that "I know this can be harsh to hear and I understand if it makes you feel bad. But it’s what I feel now, I wanted you to listen and you deserve to know". Then leave them space to digest and see if they feel like this is something worthy to work it out (alone, with you or in therapy).

Sure there’s no guarantee that whatever you feeling is received in the way you want it to be received. It can still be met with reaction instead of with response.

But it’s not detached, it doesn’t carry any "therapeutical sanitation " it is connected with the other person by closeness and familiarity just as much as the disclosure of warmth is (but obviously positive emotions are better received generally).

I also have the impression that it is you the partner who is making the most effort in connecting and closing the emotional gap.

I don’t know if he’s coming around in the same measure. What I think is that you showing up and trying to start the connection even with difficult conversations is meaningful.

I am hazarding an advice here that you should carefully consider before jumping on it, as you know what kind of emotional tension you two are breathing in this moment, see if it makes sense or it’s counterproductive:

You should keep showing up for him. Even if the responses aren’t always what you hoped for, the mere fact that you are the one initiating brings value and a sense of care to your partner. Showing up is one of the hardest things to do and one of the most meaningful things you can do.

Because it signals "you matter", you approach them being vulnerable while you could choose to avoid and hide.

Even if it’s met with aggression and resentment, it gets registered as an act of love and respectful kindness, it will likely matter in the long run.

But I know it can be painful, you will possibly be met with a lot of animosity that can feel like rejection.

It’s not necessarily like that. It’s poking a hole into the walls of his emotional bubble, and the pressure that leaks out and hits you, is his own emotional pressure releasing just a little bit.

You take a hit, but you also lower any build up that can influence his internal state and his moods.

Probably if you find a way of communicating that works, the holes you poke might be wider, and the air hitting you on might still be strong, but distributed, nod an air blade but more of a venting. If that works also his own emotional pressure will likely decrease in kind.

Mind that you don’t have to do it for his benefit (you can sometimes when you feel you are in a better place than him), you are not his therapist. The above advice is intended for when you have an emotional item that you feel the need to share or confront with him.

You need this approach for your own healing and peace. The suggestion how to approach it is to help in minimizing the chance that it will backfire instead of helping you.

The fact that helping you might also help him, it’s a bonus, not the goal.

Finally one thing you said about melatonin and nightmares.

I am curious about it, melatonin is naturally produced and it should help us to get a more nourishing rest.

It helps to reach the deeper sleep, the restoring one, where dreams happens, so potentially it should help to reach your subconscious and allow it to release and integrate through dreaming that will be forgotten the day after.

It’s a sort of detox for the subconscious and a good booster for your body and brain health and energy recuperation.

Have you spoke about this side effect with your doctor or therapist? One to make sure it’s not the pill you take that is bad for you (maybe there’s a better one to try), the second to see if that’s a possible door to shed a light on and explore.

Note - there are other things that jump to my eye (his described behaviors), I didn’t address them as I suspect they might be more a sensitive topic and I don’t know if you want to hear what is unavoidably second hand speculation. I’m learning that is not well received, so I’m keeping it to myself and will try to unload that information.

I tried to focus on the "you side" only.

Hope it is helpful in getting more sleep, (out of boredom if anything).

— insight into: the lots of edits are actually fixing the autocorrect when I write. Example-> calling your efforts "meaningful" was autocorrected into "meaningless ". So there is that. I hope I caught them all.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 9:14 AM, Saturday, July 18th]

Morbs, my weekends are hectic so I don’t have much time to reply.

I just wanted to offer you all my sympathy and I am sorry you feel so lonely.

For what is worth, I am virtually here for you, although I can’t reply properly now.

Hang in there x

Hi, no stop sign. I can appreciate the difficulty sleeping and racing mind. Thanks for talking, nice to see someone who expresses themselves.

I want to provide an opinion on is your not communicating the mystery topic. I can understand your husband and would be triggered also I must admit. It troubles him. He held, and likely still holds, his marriage to you as very important to him and his well-being. And I believe this is the way it should be....marriage is meant to be two becoming "one flesh"....or "one life". So I do not think a spouse being extremely intertwined with their spouse/marriage means they are codependent. He does not want secrets. He does not want some "other hidden issues" that is going to rattle his heart.

My opinion what you are doing is controlling and unnecessary. I am confident if you have gotten this far in trying to reconcile, that simply taking to him about this "secret issue" can be done effectively and productively. In fact, I would submit to you this would make the therapy session even more productive. He would have a chance to process. You two could work out some fringe issues related to topic. And then...you could get insight from the therapist about any outstanding thoughts or feelings.

I also see it as you not being truly accommodating to his healing. Forgive me but I have not read your story, so maybe there are mitigating circumstances. But if this is a typical betrayal situation, you have destroyed him more than you know. And if you are completely broken, as you should be, about breaking your vows and his heart....you should be completely sensitive to what he needs to feel safe. This withholding is definatly NOT THAT.

You are causing a situation which triggers your former lies and secrets. I can relate to your husband. If you are calling it a boundary, I think that is a misuse the "boundary" card.

A boundary on your part could be something like....him not swearing at you and screaming in your face. I DO THINK....he has a right. To have boundary of you not doing things like you are doing....aka....a secret issue we need to discuss with therapist.

I am quite confident this issues is something that is in your favor and challenges him. Or it involves some nuance of your betrayal that is not "new infromation" but is a new twist to the old information. I could be wrong, but again...just giving you my musings.

Anyway, I hope you can help his heart heal. May the touch of God be on you both.

Thanks for your support, guys. It genuinely means so much to me.

BFTS, I will need some time to digest what you've written, I think.

Woodthrush2,

I'm not trying to keep secrets. Without going into too much detail here, it's really only issues that we've talked about before; there shouldn't be any surprises for him...Definitely nothing infidelity-related, at least not from my side.

Often times what happens when we have disagreements is that he does some seemingly-magic thing that disarms my most pressing emotions and he convinces me that the issue is resolved, and then some time will go by and I will start to realize that the issue isn't actually resolved. The can is often just kicked a bit further down the road. And I feel silly for writing this next part, because I don't know if this really happened before or if I just imagined it happened before, but my fear is that if I provide him with a list of things I want to talk about, he'll immediately dive right in to trying to "fix" those issues, and then once he considers them fixed, he'll ask if we still need to go to MC... I have such a vivid picture of it in my mind that I feel like it must have happened before, but I'm still doubting the accuracy of my recollections.

I just want to wait til we get to a safe space with a third party looking on before we dive into these things again. And to do that I had to ask him to go to MC without telling him why I want to go to MC. I understand his reactions to it. I care about his feelings, and I'm sorry he's having these feelings. I just don't feel like I can tell him without being dragged back into the hell that is being able to see what's happening in our communications but not being able to explain it well enough to get it to change as a participant in the conversation... I need that third party.

I want to relieve that anxiety for him, but I fear that the result is going to be so emotionally costly for me... Which is where my codependent tendencies come in. Where is the line between preserving my mental/emotional well-being, and preserving his? What feelings are his responsibility to manage, and which are mine? I'm trying to pencil it in somewhere. I know the infidelity certainly complicates things.

A "boundary" isn't some magical word that invokes special protections. It's just something someone states they will not do.

I appreciate your response. So if I hear you right, the root issue is simply him considering your feelings and learning to hold space without necessarily solving the issue?

That is very legitimate and should be addressed. I see no reason why you couldn't talk about that topic before therapy.

The other concern is timing. Although this is certainly a real issue, I think dealing with it amidst recovery from betrayal, makes it more complicated in that he will perceive this as being raised as justification for you having an affair.

I am not saying it cannot be dealt with now, but should be absolutely clearly defined as an issue outside the affair. This communication issue is very common among married couple. And many people do not cheat as a result of it.

Regarding boundary...IMO, based on what your secret betrayal did to him and his trust, I think that boundary you are holding is not supportive of reconciliation. I disagree with a certain aspect of your statement about you "can't heal him".

There is some truth to that. In other words if he left the marriage, he would need to heal through other modalities and inner work to learn to pick a woman who he can trust, and to actually trust her in the relationship.

However, he is attempting to stay in a marriage with YOU. And you absolutely DO HAVE A BIG PART in his healing. Again, this healing is in the context of trusting you and feeling safe in the relationship. He cannot heal himself in the matter of trust....while staying in this marriage.... when the person who betrayed him is still willing to trigger him with actions that lend to distrust and doubt.

He COULD heal himself if separated from you...without your help. He would be starting new. And yes, it would take lots of work.

In the broader picture of the Betrayal world, you often hear people talk about this "healing ones-self"....or "healing individually". I disagree with this....IF THEY ARE TRYING TO STAY TOGETHER. If they are separating....certainly....100% applies. Heal yourself.

I would encourage you to look into this by checking out Dr. Jake Porters "Couples Centered Recovery" model. You can find information on his YouTube channel. His videos on this topic are what formed my strong beliefs about the topic of healing together.

Anyway, thanks for dialogue!! Have a great weekend. Peace.✌️

[This message edited by WoodThrush2 at 4:57 PM, Saturday, July 18th]

Morbs, I don't have a lot for you other than a sympathetic ear. I can see the pain and confusion in your post and I'm sorry things are what they are right now. FWIW I think this will likely blow over. I'm having similar meltdowns with my wife and speaking for myself I can say that despite the hurt and the pain my love for her is still there, even as I'm melting down. It's just... hard. Really hard. And confusing. He's confused and almost certainly misreading your intentions. And yes, the power point presentation was not a good move, but I know from reading here your heart was in the right place. I think, I hope, he realizes that. He's probably just flooded, and boy oh boy do I know that feeling.

My wife and I are, right now, kinda going through it as I type. We've been hashing it out all morning this morning with me trauma dumping and her doing her best. To her credit she's not being defensive or blamey or anything like that. You know, reading your post is, in a way, giving me some insight into the feelings she's probably going through right now. The sadness and self blame. The helplessness watching me go through these emotions. Not being able to do anything about it, but still wanting to do something, anything to make it right or make it better.

All she can do, and what I would offer to you, is be there. Don't think he doesn't want you there. I'm not acfing like it, but I don't want my wife to go anywhere or abandon me. Maybe I'm testing her right now. Testing her limits. Seeing if she's going to just throw her hands up in the air and say "fuck it. I can't do this anymore. You're inconsolable."

I'm telling you were my head is at right now because maybe, maybe it's some helpful insight as to what might be going on in his head. My wife went further than you did. Much further, and she was downright cruel about it at times. I have a lot to work through still. It's been 15 months since my d day, so not too far off from yours. We're better to each other in so many ways now and I'm appreciative of how far she's come and the genuine effort she's been putting into this. But sometimes... sometimes the memories and my imagination just get to be too much and I have to let off some hurt, anger and steam. I have to see how she responds to it.

I have to see if the changes are real and not subject to reverting under pressure.

I'm struggling right now, too. She just hopped in the shower so I have a little time to reply, try to offer some support and insight, and at the same time purge a little while I'm at it.

Don't give up. I don't want my wife to give up. Despite how I'm feeling and acting right now I need her.

[This message edited by Pogre at 4:24 PM, Saturday, July 18th]

Hi GotTheMorbs, I laughed (only a little, and gently) when I read your post. I wrote one called something like "midnight pity party" years ago that was so similar! I remember it really helped me to write it out even though I cringed a few days later at the tone.

Can you write out the topics for your MC session so your husband doesn’t feel blindsided? Also, I worked super hard to find an MC that I knew my husband would feel comfortable with. He was a man, very empathic, he put me through the wringer for infidelity but also was also respectful when he saw I was really owning it. My husband and I each had individual sessions before we had a joint session, and the joint sessions were two hours long (every other week) so we each were fully heard. Maybe putting some time into finding a really good fit MC would help.

Hi GotTheMorbs, I laughed (only a little, and gently) when I read your post. I wrote one called something like "midnight pity party" years ago that was so similar! I remember it really helped me to write it out even though I cringed a few days later at the tone.

Can you write out the topics for your MC session so your husband doesn’t feel blindsided? Also, I worked super hard to find an MC that I knew my husband would feel comfortable with. He was a man, very empathic, he put me through the wringer for infidelity but also was also respectful when he saw I was really owning it. My husband and I each had individual sessions before we had a joint session, and the joint sessions were two hours long (every other week) so we each were fully heard. Maybe putting some time into finding a really good fit MC would help.

What is keeping you from disclosing the topic of the MC session(s) you want?

I tried to give him affection as a means of comfort today. It felt like I was forcing myself on him.

Turns out, he is not trying to self soothe. He is intentionally holding onto his negative feelings. He's not even listening or trying to make sense of anything I've tried to convey to him to ease those feelings.

I don't know if this is me being solipsistic/narcissistic, but I can't help but feel like this is his way of punishing me for asking him to go to MC and/or for not telling him why. It's like this every damn time I try to ask for anything.

I'm starting to wonder if he's just throwing a fucking tantrum because he wanted to dig into his defensiveness and build a case for why whatever I'm planning to bring up in therapy is Inaccurate and Just Another Exhibit of Crazy Womanhood And he can't prepare for it like a Proper Lawyer, so he's freaking out. Maybe we shouldn't even go. Maybe I should just give up entirely. Because wtf even is this?

It's really his own fucking fault I don't feel comfortable telling him, for fear of him launching into litigation or fake repair mode again, just to kick the can down the road and avoid going to counseling... And somehow I'm made out to be the bad guy here because I'm uncomfortable. It fucking figures.

Doesn't help that his stupid IC agreed with him that I "definitely have an agenda." What fucking agenda??? That I want to work on our marriage?! Oh, how despicable of me!!! I want to find this guy's address and egg his house. Maybe slash his tires too, while I'm at it. Surely making the problem worse is a violation of the Hippocratic oath, or something ?

And he keeps saying that because we're a couple weeks away from me leaving for my annual two weeks of military service that the "timing is awfully convenient." Okaaay... So what I'm hearing is, if we're having marital issues and I'm about to go away to the same fucking environment where my affair began last year I should not be trying to work on them before I leave? Like it's just another fucking example of how it's never the right time to fix things, and it's "inconsiderate" of me to bring it up.

I'm about to explode with resentment right now. I can't stand him. I want to run away!!! I want to destroy something!!!

I cancelled the appointment.

I still don’t understand why you couldn’t have told him the topic of what you wanted to discuss.