SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

The parallel you made to your childhood abuse is understandable and powerful, it risks dismissing all critical feedback as abusive projection. In the context of infidelity, many generalized comments (e.g., about the damage to the betrayed spouse, the necessity of deep introspection, or the selfish nature of the act) are not born of mere "ignorance and hurt," but of shared experience and a realistic assessment of the harm caused. Ironically, you are making a generalization here By framing all external criticism as simply "pissing into the ashes," in doing so you maybe insulating yourself from valid, albeit painful, accountability that is often necessary for true reconciliation. The difference between "tough love" (as abuse) and "necessary hard truths" (for healing) is in the intent and delivery, not the content, and you seem to categorize all painful content as the former.

'Nothing More Wrong with Me": Whilst this assertion, while helpful for combating self-loathing, may overcorrect by minimizing the significance of the infidelity. The act of infidelity did cause catastrophic, singular damage to the marriage. Framing it as merely "struggling with a lot of shit and made some bad choices" might be seen as downplaying the profound ethical failure and relational injury, making it harder for the BS to trust that the WS grasps the gravity of the betrayal

Generalizations, while sometimes viewed negatively for their bluntness, hold significant pragmatic value—they are often more useful than they are harmful, especially in contexts demanding a quick decision or an initial assessment. The core logic is simple: they act as efficient cognitive shortcuts that draw on observed patterns.

A generalization based on high-probability outcomes provides a crucial advantage: efficiency in risk assessment.

Let's use your infidelity example. While a precise statistic like 99% is unrealistic, if historical data or sociological studies suggest that a high percentage of individuals who have cheated once will cheat again, then the generalization "they'll only do it again" becomes a highly effective piece of advice for the betrayed spouse.

A person facing a crisis needs to make a decision—stay or go. If the chance of recurrence is 70%, 80%, or even 90%, advising them to "get out while the getting's good" is a strategy of risk mitigation. It prioritizes protecting the individual from a probable future harm, despite the small chance they might be the exception.

While seeking the exception might offer a "warm fuzzy feeling," insisting on a deep, individualized analysis in a high-stakes scenario can lead to paralysis by analysis or, worse, prolonged exposure to predictable emotional damage. This is one of the most common things I see on this forum. A generalization provides a necessary, practical guidepost.

The resistance to generalizations often stems from a deep-seated, but often misplaced, belief in absolute personal uniqueness. People dislike being categorized because it feels like a denial of their individuality. However, from a psychological and sociological perspective, human behavior is remarkably patterned.

In high-stress, emotional situations like infidelity, the number of rational, predictable responses is quite limited. The intense emotional pressure channels behavior into recognizable streams.

There aren't an infinite number of "cheater" types. There are patterns—the habitual narcissist, the emotionally avoidant, the mid-life crisis responder, the opportunistic hedonist, etc. Each type has a relatively predictable set of motivations, excuses, and post-discovery actions.

Similarly, the betrayed spouse follows common, though painful, trajectories: the immediate trauma reactor, the rationalizing fixer, the depressed avoider, the angry confrontationalist, and so on.

People may believe their combination of preferences is unique, but the building blocks are widely shared. If you know a few key demographic, socioeconomic, and personality data points, you can often predict major life choices and aesthetic preferences with surprising accuracy, because human societies and cultural influences create clusters of common traits.

Trust me, if you feel open enough to share your story, dollars to doughnuts I can link you half a dozen remarkably similar cases with remarkably similar wayward. As an academic exercise, there is a really famous book by an authors name we are prohibited from mentioning. I urge you to read this book. In reading the book, it's stunning how accurately she captures cheaters. How they act. How the respond. Don't believe me? Read the thousands of comments and reviews echoing this. 'My husband acted entirely the same' so on and so forth.

Evidence for these patterns can be noted here in the JFO forum, how often we see response such as: "Jeez, I could have wrote this myself." This isn't a coincidence; it's a testament to the universal human scripts that play out when core relationships are shattered. The emotions, the excuses, the defensive mechanisms, and the stages of grief follow an almost identical roadmap across countless individuals.

Generalizations are not meant to be the final word; they are simply the highly probable starting point. They tell you where to focus your attention and which pitfalls to avoid first.

In complex human interactions, accepting that one's story is frighteningly similar to others is not a diminution of one's pain, but rather an empowering realization. It means that others have been through this, their patterns can be studied, and therefore, a roadmap to recovery already exists. Generalizations simply make that roadmap immediately accessible.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 12:05 PM, Thursday, October 23rd]

Hi there Ghostie, it used to bother me so much when people would talk about abuse they had suffered and it got set aside with an implicit (and I have even seen it explicit, though not in years thank God) that sucks but it's not a fuckin excuse, wayward. Along with a little dose of well I was abused too and didn't fuckin cheat on anyone. So let me start by saying how sorry I am that happened to you, and I am glad you are getting help and growing stronger.

While you are hurt and healing it is a good idea to be very careful about people you listen to. Brené Brown talks about vulnerability but OMG do not be vulnerable to people who don't love you and want the best for you or people who are themselves not healed! I remember reading about vulnerability and posting some really difficult things on this forum and getting shamed (and not even by BS, it was from WS who I assume were self hating or perhaps just happy that someone was worse than they were. Again, it's been half a decade and thankfully I don't see that on here any more).

I am a platinum member so I have access to some features that you may not have, but check on the "my profile" tab to see if you are able to block members whose feedback you find unhelpful:

Follow or Forget
Follow up to 10 friends and 25 topics in your profile. Forget a user and it will hide all of their posts outside of the Fun & Games forum and prevent them from sending you private messages.

Even if you think that putting a brave face on is good, it's exhausting to wade through unhelpful comments and you need your strength for other things. Perhaps later you will be in a position to understand that they are often coming from the unhealed places in other people. But you need to be more whole before you can do that.

Thanks so much, Pippin

Ghostie, post #18

Shifting from a place of self loathing and trying to figure out why the hell I'm so broken and a wholly "bad person," to "There's actually nothing more wrong with me than anyone else, and I am a generally good person who's just struggling with a lot of shit and made some bad choices in the past. I don't need to be torturing myself with thoughts of my infidelity constantly" has been very, very helpful. I am in need, and the best way to help my husband rn is to meet my own needs... It's okay if you disagree. ;)

I think the focus needs to be a lot less on where you stand on the good/bad scale--and certainly should be a lot less on ('there is nothing more wrong with me than anyone else'), and more about figuring out your 'Whys'. We are all sinners, none of us are perfect, yes that is very true indeed. There is a subtle but important distinction between wallowing in shame vs understanding the gravity of your decisions and trying to figure out how you got there.

What about instead 'I did something horrible that hurt my BH very deeply, but I am getting to the bottom of it so that I do not live like this ever again'. Take where you stand in the good/bad continuum, out of it.

Pippin, post #22:

Hi there Ghostie, it used to bother me so much when people would talk about abuse they had suffered and it got set aside with an implicit (and I have even seen it explicit, though not in years thank God) that sucks but it's not a fuckin excuse, wayward. Along with a little dose of well I was abused too and didn't fuckin cheat on anyone. So let me start by saying how sorry I am that happened to you, and I am glad you are getting help and growing stronger.

Has anyone really used 'it's not a fuckin excuse' i.e., a curse-word like 'fuckin' added in to really throw the point down extra-hard on the WS...or is what is in this above quoted paragraph a bit of an exaggeration?

The problem with the sentiment expressed here (what I quoted) is that many WS have indeed seemingly tried to pass off the abuse that they have suffered as justification for their affair.

This forum isn't meant to be Chicken Soup For The Soul for Waywards. (I don't think this is really a place to open up about serious FOO as people here aren't therapists.) It is more about *accountability* for the affair. If the posts on here do seem harsh, it is usually because the WS is *STILL* inflicting more harm on the BS (whom many of us have more compassion for as they are the ones who are being betrayed) and the goal is to get the WS to WAKE UP faster so they can STOP causing so much pain and confusion w their actions.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 1:06 AM, Thursday, October 30th]

I'll use another analogy.

If someone, Heaven forbid, causes an automobile accident--where they are clearly at fault that is, should that person be focusing on how they are really a good person and a good driver? No, I'd say instead that their focus should be on owning up and then doing what they can to help fix the extensive damage they caused. Meanwhile, they should own up as to their faults as a driver e.g., prone to road-rage, distracted driving, ect.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 10:53 PM, Wednesday, October 29th]

Although every infidelity likely has some unique issues, I do not think you can discount historical trauma and FOO issues. I would never use mine as an excuse as plenty of people with similar trauma either worked on their issues and healed properly or did not make the same choices I did. That said, I absolutely believe that my FOO and trauma significantly impacted me carrying significant shame and baggage into my marriage and that created an unhealthy dynamic (unbeknownst to my wife) that resulted in a shaky foundation that crumbled much easier when issues arose.

As part of me preparing to disclose, I worked in IC to understand how I could have made the choices I did. When I disclosed I also disclosed my teenage sexual trauma. My wife was surprised, but will say it helped her understand my affair as it would have looked like it came out of nowhere otherwise. It helped her understand that it had nothing to do with her or our marriage and was entirely the result of my selfish choices, but she understands better how I could have made those choices.

I get that some people may use this an excuse, but firmly believe that most Wayward's are fundamental damaged as making that choice is not something a healthy and whole person will typically do. Totally get if some people disagree.

I am not really sure how far into your journey that you are, but generally I think that someone committed to progress may settle into different postures while they work through the stages to evolve. It’s not only necessary, but inevitable.

I can tell you a little about my experience but I don’t think I can tell you what will work best for you because like most people I probably would have gone about various things differently had I known different things or had been subject to different environments or experiences.

For me the bristle means it’s triggering. Triggers are no longer negative to me- they are an internal guide that says "this bothers me for a reason".

On the surface, it might seem like of course this bothers me because I didn’t live my proclaimed values. I made promises when I got married that I didn’t live up to. And while now, 8 years later I can see why and how that happened, and I can even have compassion for my circumstances that led into these terrible decisions, I will always hate the choice I made to cheat.

However, I am no longer paralyzed by the shame of it. I accept that I did it. But what takes away most of the triggers surrounding it is I feel like I have a greater attachment and understanding my values, I have learned to love and respect myself and ask for what I need, and I have new coping for when life is hard. Instead of seeking chaos I know to lean into other more positive things.

And so I think I am saying that I trust myself more to handle whatever comes up. Whereas I think here I would become overwhelmed by reading what people are writing (which back then was far more harsh than it is today) because I still had growth to do.

And, the biggie is shame is not an emotion. It’s useless. Guilt or remorse are definitely more beneficial for our internal guidance. When it comes to shame, likely it’s something the person always had and accumulated proof throughout their life that they are bad. Shame for me was the hardest thing to overcome. It started as a girl and it built into acting out. Which brought more shame and there becomes a cycle to all of it. I never felt good enough and felt less than more and more all the time. I would bend to fit versions of me I thought others would love or approve of.

And so as an adult not realizing that the place I was operating from was making me avoidant, keeping me from being vulnerable, people pleasing and looking for and latching into anything that might make it go away, especially external validation that wasn’t a simple decision to just not have all that exist.

Unwinding all of that came by really spending a lot of time learning who I am, what I want, living my values, giving myself grace, changing my self talk, keeping agreements, and so forth. It was something that I dissolved by learning to respect myself and knowing that my relationship with myself guides everything else in my life including my relationships.

It is good to give yourself permission not to beat yourself up if you can also be curious. What about this bothers me? Do I think it’s true? Because I think others words do not hold power unless part of us agrees with them- and that often lies deeper than the decision to let go of it. Shame lies deeply in many of our operating systems.

However- not all ws are paralyzed with shame the way that I was. If this is hindering you, yes I think you need to spend time thinking about your relationship to it prior to cheating, I think often people find it was a major contributor to being able to cheat to begin with.

It is the goal to get to where you have compassion for yourself, and that part does start to happen after the decision that’s the route you need to go. Just don’t be surprised if that decision is not the end point, because then it’s a struggle between our heart and mind. Instead use it as a way of guiding yourself to it. In other words, it’s a decision you have to make over and over and daily.

And for what it’s worth the scathing words I saw in here that sometimes ate me alive and made me argue in my head, helped me to clarify my values. It also helped me know the deeper pain my husband was not good at expressing and that I didn’t want to face. Because of that I could understand his triggers more deeply and often even anticipate them and help avoid contributing to them.

It’s hard to read here as a new ws, but it’s don’t think it’s really the site- it’s all the unexpected turbulence that we don’t see coming when we do the cheating to start with.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:23 PM, Thursday, October 30th]

I think the focus needs to be a lot less on where you stand on the good/bad scale--and certainly should be a lot less on ('there is nothing more wrong with me than anyone else'), and more about figuring out your 'Whys'.

I’m a few (VERY intense) months in, and I’m fairly confident I figured out the whys— and not just the surface factors. Because I didn’t go looking for an affair, and I wasn’t putting out this carefully curated version of me in order to attract anybody, I felt like my AP saw me exactly as I was, and accepted me. He saw me, sweating and swearing and absolutely struggling in a vast hellscape, and still found me attractive. He thought I was interesting enough to seek out and talk to for hours and hours every day, when it seemed like no one wanted to talk to me at home. And when I told him all about my crazy fantasies of running away to the wilderness to commune with nature and the animals and live off the land, he wasn’t scared away… He participated in the fantasies too. He saw that I was capable of breaking rules and telling lies and doing something as bad as committing infidelity, and still liked me like that.

I felt good enough for him exactly as I was. That feeling is what I’ve been chasing from men all my life. But what I’ve come to realize is that it needed to come from me all along; that it’s self-acceptance and self-love that I need… And I think that a lot of WS are needing that too, and that’s why many of them can’t resist the validation that their AP gives them.

And so when people in these spaces go spouting stuff about how "good people" could "never" commit infidelity and "bad people" can and do, and other sentiments that amount to this false, unhelpful dichotomy… It all just amounts to greater shame and stunts the growth of WS that feel this way. And like I said, if these communities are truly about healing from and preventing future infidelities, this kind of speech simply hinders that. Hurt people hurting people and losing sight of the end goal, that’s all it is.

The other thing is, they’re saying they "could never" because they’re so principled. They "could never" betray not only their loved ones, but neither could they betray themselves, and their values… It’s all just a defense. A coping mechanism to help them try to protect their sense of self. Because the truth is, if you closely observe any human being for long enough, you’ll see them act in discordance with their purported principles and values eventually. And how could we not, when morality can be so complicated sometimes? Well, we value honestly, but what’s a little white lie if it spares your loved one some hard feelings? We value fairness and equality, but what’s bending the rules just this once for a particularly helpful member of the group? We value authenticity, but then someone unmasks themselves and stands, naked and vulnerable, in front of us, and we are made uncomfortable, and then of course it’s only fair that we ask them to conform, you know, for the good of society….

Other people can’t look in the mirror and see that their values are more flexible than they would like them to be without having an identity crisis. We’ve been conditioned to see behavior that doesn’t conform to these perceived universal mores as a threat— they’re unpredictable! They’re not entirely pro-social! Cue the alarm bells! And to consider ourselves perpetrators of such behaviors is equally alarming. Very uncomfortable… So people just… don’t. "That could never be me!" Oh, but I assure you, it could.

I could. And I did. And I can take an honest look at myself— with a microscope rather than a mirror, even— and say that I am a chameleon. I have had to let my values be flexible for so much of my life just to survive. They shift and change to accommodate what it is I need pretty often, actually. And I am OKAY WITH THAT. I don’t think it’s a bad thing. My identity isn’t that I am unprincipled; it’s that I am a survivor. I am adaptable. I’m a realist. I am able to see both sides of the coin in different situations and think deeply and logically about them (which, ironically, often translates to having a lot of empathy and understanding for others.) I can see both the best and the worst in people, and still love them anyway.

I am learning to love these things about me. This is what’s going to prevent me from cheating again. Not chasing someone else’s idea of what makes me a "good person" and trying to adopt others’ values.

Has anyone really used 'it's not a fuckin excuse' i.e., a curse-word like 'fuckin' added in to really throw the point down extra-hard on the WS...or is what is in this above quoted paragraph a bit of an exaggeration?

I have definitely seen people use curse words like that. No, it’s not an exaggeration. And no, that kind of language is not reserved just for waywards who are still actively hurting their spouses or actually seeking to justify their A. I would invite those of you who rationalize your words in this manner to consider:

A) Are they actually justifying, or are they just expressing what they experienced and felt at the time of their infidelity? Are you hearing what they’re actually saying, or are you reading to respond? Can you encourage them to go beyond the surface-level whys without being dismissive of those experiences/feelings or accusing them of justifying their actions?

B) Are you responding to them with this "tough love" because you actually believe it is going to help them and their BS, or are you responding from your own place of hurt with the secret pleasure of putting them "in their place?" Does it feel cathartic to respond this way because you are genuinely setting them on the path to healing, or because you feel like you are exacting justice?

[This message edited by Ghostie at 4:15 AM, Monday, November 3rd]

This is such an interesting post and I've taken a lot time to respond to this, so I hope my response is useful in some way to you:

I have had to let my values be flexible for so much of my life just to survive. They shift and change to accommodate what it is I need pretty often, actually. And I am OKAY WITH THAT. I don’t think it’s a bad thing. My identity isn’t that I am unprincipled; it’s that I am a survivor. I am adaptable. I’m a realist. I am able to see both sides of the coin in different situations and think deeply and logically about them (which, ironically, often translates to having a lot of empathy and understanding for others.) I can see both the best and the worst in people, and still love them anyway.

You celebrate your identity as an "adaptable chameleon" and a "survivor" whose values are intentionally flexible. While you may like this trait about yourself, that very flexibility is the enabling mechanism that made you capable of infidelity. More importantly, this worldview is currently preventing you from accepting a critical truth: that many people truly are capable of maintaining non-negotiable principles. Until you stop framing your betrayal as the inevitable result of having principles that "shift as the wind blows" and acknowledge that others possess firm boundaries that do not yield to temporary emotional needs, you won't grasp how some people are capable of fidelity. Had your principles not shifted to allow you to pursue something that "made you feel good," you likely wouldn't have crossed that line.

Your central belief that principles are inherently weak or just a personal defense mechanism—that no one is truly capable of maintaining their moral integrity—is fundamentally flawed.

The idea that prolonged observation will eventually show everyone violating their values is historically inaccurate. We have an unbelievable wealth of examples of people who endured unbelievable levels of torture and death simply to maintain their core beliefs.

Consider the Scottish Covenanters who refused to acknowledge the English king, or countless religious martyrs.

If people are willing to endure skin flaying rather than accept a new king, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that many average people are absolutely capable of holding onto the principle of fidelity and not stabbing their partner in the back for momentary comfort or the pursuit of orgasms.

This sweeping claim that everyone's values are flexible appears to be your own coping mechanism to justify your infidelity. You want to believe that because you were capable of such a profound moral failing, everyone else is too. You must accept that while many people are morally flawed, many others are not capable of this specific betrayal. Where was this flexible morality amongst the Scots as they were being drawn on the rack? Or being sawn in two groin first. (us Brits have a lovely past)

You argue that everyone is capable of profound moral failings and that principles are merely flexible defenses. This raises a simple, yet critical, question that your worldview must address: Why is it that some people cheat and others don't? If the capability for betrayal is universal, why isn't the act? Do you truly believe the only difference is a lack of opportunity? Do you genuinely think others avoid infidelity simply because they haven't faced difficult times in their relationships or lives? To fully grasp your accountability, you need to deeply consider what distinguishes your choice from the principled resistance of others.

You equate minor moral failings, such as telling a white lie to spare a partner's feelings, with the act of infidelity. This creates a false equivalency and ignores the crucial concept of a line in the sand. I have lied to spare my partners feelings before. I don't think that's a good thing to do on the whole but I don't have a hard line on this. I simply don't believe steaks are as high as infidelity. So yes, I have moral failings but I also have lines I wouldn't cross. I'm struggling to see why that's so hard to accept.

We can all concede that no one is perfect. Lying to spare a partner's feelings is a moral failing, but it is not morally equivalent to betraying the fundamental trust and commitment of a relationship through infidelity. The severity and impact are vastly different.

Infidelity involves secrecy, calculated deception, and a profound violation of the partnership agreement.

We all have lines. Believing that some people have the strength to maintain the principle of not cheating is not a moral defense; it's a recognition of human will and commitment.

I honestly think you need to address this failure to distinguish between levels of moral harm if you want to grow into a person who would not betray a partner again.

I will concede that the profound feeling of "being seen" and the realization that you were chasing self-acceptance through external validation is a common and likely accurate diagnosis for the underlying struggle.

However, this is where the self-serving narrative must be challenged: your emotional need did not grant you permission to commit infidelity. You used a destructive, boundary-violating action—infidelity—as a disastrous form of self-medication for an internal lack of self-worth. True self-love is not found in a shared fantasy with an AP, but in the grueling, principled work of becoming the person who doesn't betray their deepest commitments.

You claim the "good people/bad people" dichotomy used in recovery spaces stunts growth and that judgment should be avoided.

I don't believe this dichotomy is universally false, nor do I think you can universally speak to what will help all cheaters. You can only speak to what you need. Some people absolutely need a wake-up call to fully grasp the severity and impact of their actions.

You ask if people are "justifying" or "just expressing" their feelings. When an explanation (like the need for validation) is used to minimize the act or deflect accountability, it functions as a justification.

You raise a valid concern about the motivations of people in these spaces—whether they are truly helping or just "exacting justice." If a responder is motivated by vengeance, that language is unhelpful.

However, when I challenge your claims, it is not for the "secret pleasure of putting you in your place." It is because your current thinking—that everyone is morally weak and that infidelity is a minor moral failure—is a hindrance to true growth. The "wake-up call" some people need is a necessary challenge to the intellectual justifications that allow them to minimize their actions.

To truly heal, you must embrace accountability for the deliberate moral line you crossed, not just celebrate your self-described traits of adaptability and survival.

I’m a few (VERY intense) months in, and I’m fairly confident I figured out the whys— and not just the surface factors. Because I didn’t go looking for an affair, and I wasn’t putting out this carefully curated version of me in order to attract anybody, I felt like my AP saw me exactly as I was, and accepted me. He saw me, sweating and swearing and absolutely struggling in a vast hellscape, and still found me attractive. He thought I was interesting enough to seek out and talk to for hours and hours every day, when it seemed like no one wanted to talk to me at home. And when I told him all about my crazy fantasies of running away to the wilderness to commune with nature and the animals and live off the land, he wasn’t scared away… He participated in the fantasies too. He saw that I was capable of breaking rules and telling lies and doing something as bad as committing infidelity, and still liked me like that.

I felt good enough for him exactly as I was. That feeling is what I’ve been chasing from men all my life. But what I’ve come to realize is that it needed to come from me all along; that it’s self-acceptance and self-love that I need… And I think that a lot of WS are needing that too, and that’s why many of them can’t resist the validation that their AP gives them.

I don't know your partner, but if I were him and read your account, it would likely feel almost romantic. I've read many wayward spouses recount their affairs, and the descriptions are often dripping in shame and profound regret. Yours, however, reads as though you haven't fully let go of the fantasy or truly internalized the magnitude of the pain you've inflicted. I'm not sure shame is your issue.

The core question is this: Are you pushing so hard against the concept of external shame because you are actively trying to avoid the painful consequences of your choice? Your argument suggests a morality that bends to facilitate feelings of pleasure and comfort. Now that your actions have created the painful, unavoidable feeling of shame—the direct cost of betrayal—you seek to block it out. Allowing you to circumvent this feeling is tantamount to assisting you in escaping accountability. That path is not one of healing and would be profoundly ignoble.

In your attempt to survive I believe you've carved out a worldview best characterized by emotional hedonism. Your approach seems to be governed by a simple, self-serving logic: principles must be flexible if they restrict pleasure, and unpleasant feelings like shame must be avoided. This means that if something leads to a "good time," the principles bend to allow it; such as the affair itself. if a consequence, like shame you feel is being pushed, makes you feel bad, the focus shifts to blocking it out. Constantly shifting your moral goalposts to manage immediate comfort, however, offers no foundation for lasting change. In the long run, this avoidance of accountability will only guarantee the instability that made you vulnerable to betrayal in the first place.

If you feel this lengthy response is meant to do anything other than challenge your current thought process and help you achieve genuine growth, I sincerely apologize. Nothing here was written out of personal pain, but I am sure it can be read that way if you choose to see confrontation over difficult introspection.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 11:04 AM, Monday, November 3rd]

I can see where you are coming from schooler, but it’s not hedonistic to want to be out of pain, even from your own actions. It’s human.

The healing journey that comes from either cheating or being cheated on is a long evolution for both ws and bs. And both will posture shift at various times to be able to tolerate all of it. I hear her just saying she needs a break from the intense pain of self flagellation and that is a normal way to feel about pain.

Shame actually is a state of being that ws are typically in before the affair. This is why they are seeking acceptance externally. They have spent many years looking for that self acceptance in others because they stay in this shame cycle that is very self defeating.

Shame is also self defeating in a reconciliation because it works against the ws in rising to the occasion rather than hiding from the issues. They can’t help but have their big feelings overshadow everything and it doesn’t allow them to create space for their partner.

A ws doesn’t go from simply being one thing to another overnight. It’s a marathon. I agree with her premise of alleviating the shame and instead focusing on building the good. I just think often shame is something that needs excavation rather than a decision not to feel it.

Still, she is right- the goal for the ws is to come to a place of self acceptance, taking responsibility for their own happiness and self validation. This allows us to be a better adjusted partner and can make a huge difference in the relationships we are capable of building.

To decide to do better you essentially have to decide you are worth more- and that starts a cycle of trying to regain (or for many of us gain for the first time) self respect. It’s from that place we can help our partner heal, and we can display less of our shame based behaviors such as avoidance, looking for quick fixes of validation and other bandaids we use to feel better.

WS need more self love, acceptance, and the ability to feel worthy of others love so we can experience it. We block connection when we do not feel that worthiness It’s a difficult journey to get from point a to point b, to think differently allows us to begin practicing behaving differently. And that process is often an awkward dance of one step forward two steps back as we struggle to find the tune of the music we are trying to create.

Having a vision of that, especially after realizing why you have done what you have done is great progress in a few months. And the coping that goes into that will strengthen as she continues this journey that I believe she is firmly in from her last response on this thread.

It’s natural for someone who has never been a ws to think shame is useful. But what is really useful is remorse, and to create enough space for your partner to truly be in that you can’t carry as much of the shame around. Making space is a big part of this recovery process and o think that’s what she is striving towards right now.

Fight the good fight, ghost or but definitely see shame as part of why you had problems with self acceptance - meaning you are going to need to go back and heal it’s sources. I could not for the life of me figure out why my IC wanted to talk more about my childhood and young adult development more than my present day predicament. She wanted me to start at the source and see how that propelled me. I feel the way you do- I affaired down with someone so that I didn’t have to feel less than. You are thinking properly when you think about how you can stop seeing yourself as less than.

This is the cure so to speak. No one ever did better by ruminating about how bad they are. That is not how it works.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:16 PM, Monday, November 3rd]

Sorry for the additional post but I want to illuminate something for clarity:

don't know your partner, but if I were him and read your account, it would likely feel almost romantic. I've read many wayward spouses recount their affairs, and the descriptions are often dripping in shame and profound regret. Yours, however, reads as though you haven't fully let go of the fantasy or truly internalized the magnitude of the pain you've inflicted. I'm not sure shame is your issue.

What you are witnessing, I believe is the time before remorse sets in.

Guilt is how we feel about what we did. Guilt is a great emotion because it is part of our internal guidance that says I don’t want to do things that are hurtful to others or against what I believe my values to be. It can propel towards change, apologies, etc.

Shame is how we feel about ourselves. It’s a base emotion in which so much of our thoughts and behaviors come from. An affair often compounds shame because we already think we are bad. In her post she is talking about how the ap made her feel accepted because that person was okay with her flaws. In essence, the other person you have an affair with often also has shame and is not respecting themselves. That mirrroring creates a feeling of acceptance, but it’s only because we know they are doing the wrong things too and it’s a little like how a pig likes mud. We feel comfortable being our worst self in front of someone who is also being their worst self.

Remorse is when we make enough space from all our feelings and we really take in the damage. For most ws, this isn’t immediate, but the process usually starts a few months out when we decide to stop navel gazing and become a little less overwhelmed by all our own pain. It’s when we start getting out of our own way.

The more that space opens the more capacity we have to be able to stand in front of our bs and really take in their side of it without it creating a reflex of overwhelming shame we begin defensively trying to avoid what it is we are witnessing in front of u. It allows for more and more accountability to take place, which allows us to witness and understand more of their pain and the damage.

This may illustrate more of why you are reading her as feeling romantic- that’s not romance that’s finding someone that you respect in the level you respect yourself, which for many ws is very little.

For me that respect eventually grew into being able to take up more space in the relationship than I had allowed previously in my people pleasing. And that brought me more to my husbands equal rather than an equal to a philandering old man who really just wanted to fuck anyone who he could
get interested in the proposition.

But I felt very much like Ghostri described- I felt like I sort of had permission to be my worst self. I had always presented my best self to my husband prior to this, because I wanted to be worthy of his love. But that sort of hiding creates a cancer that is infected with the shame of not being worthy for who I am.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:49 PM, Monday, November 3rd]

Other people can’t look in the mirror and see that their values are more flexible than they would like them to be without having an identity crisis.

Probably some truth to this. This question comes up now and again. There are different camps on this subject, I personally think anyone could succumb potentially. Others see it differently. What we know for sure is many people haven’t cheated.

But the problem is: why are you on here arguing these hypotheticals? You torched your house and you now want to talk about the fire code? You don’t have a good moral perch to preach from, and generalities should be the least of your worries at this time.

I agree with the Dr, I’d be mortified if I read something like this from my WW a few months after D-Day.

But the problem is: why are you on here arguing these hypotheticals? You torched your house and you now want to talk about the fire code? You don’t have a good moral perch to preach from, and generalities should be the least of your worries at this time.

I agree with the Dr, I’d be mortified if I read something like this from my WW a few months after D-Day.

I am having a hard time seeing this from her post. Maybe because I have been there.

When I came here and started reading I felt very defensive of seeing what people are writing. It’s hard maybe for people who haven’t been a ws to understand the fragile place we grow from. I fought with people about it, numerous times.

Ink - I would gently assert that at a few months out, you probably still hadn’t experienced the fully shattered illusion of who your wife was. Who I was at 3 month out. Who this person is. A ws who just chose to have an affair, then experienced the fall out of this can not be expected to have the point of view of a healed person.

It’s very tender to be here as a new ws, and awkwardly flail trying to figure it all out. It IS triggering to hear things here that your bs doesn’t say to you. What you may not realize is that just like you would have been appalled to read this from your ww, many of us aren’t hearing at home what we hear in this forum. I left for a while not being able to look at it anymore.

Ghostie- I hope you use the stop sign when you need it. I hope you will stay and continue to sort through your thoughts of where you are. Anyone under the illusion that all ws do not start from this place are just probably not a ws.

You can however use this for what I used it for- to strengthen your understanding of yourself so that you can better communicate and tie together issues your husband may not have the strength or ability yet to express himself.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:25 PM, Monday, November 3rd]

Ghostie, post #28:

I’m a few (VERY intense) months in, and I’m fairly confident I figured out the whys— and not just the surface factors. Because I didn’t go looking for an affair, and I wasn’t putting out this carefully curated version of me in order to attract anybody, I felt like my AP saw me exactly as I was, and accepted me. He saw me, sweating and swearing and absolutely struggling in a vast hellscape, and still found me attractive. He thought I was interesting enough to seek out and talk to for hours and hours every day, when it seemed like no one wanted to talk to me at home. And when I told him all about my crazy fantasies of running away to the wilderness to commune with nature and the animals and live off the land, he wasn’t scared away… He participated in the fantasies too. He saw that I was capable of breaking rules and telling lies and doing something as bad as committing infidelity, and still liked me like that.

This is not a 'Why' though, this instead reads to me more like a JUSTIFICATION.

There are a lot of unanswered questions here. Why didn't anyone want to talk to you at home? Did you play a part of this? Why did you let AP in emotionally in the first place? Not to mention all the DECISIONS you allowed yourself to make to go behind BH's back. Did you try talking to your BH about the dissatisfaction in your marriage? If your marriage was that unhappy before and your BH was unresponsive to working on it, why didn't you divorce BH?

You of course don't need to share the answers here, but they are a big part of your Why.

Why do you want to save your marriage to BH NOW? And related, what if in the future someone comes along who seems to 'get' you better than you feel your BH understands you.

And so when people in these spaces go spouting stuff about how "good people" could "never" commit infidelity and "bad people" can and do, and other sentiments that amount to this false, unhelpful dichotomy… It all just amounts to greater shame and stunts the growth of WS that feel this way. And like I said, if these communities are truly about healing from and preventing future infidelities, this kind of speech simply hinders that. Hurt people hurting people and losing sight of the end goal, that’s all it is.

Well, as I said before, we are ALL sinners. That isn't so much the issue, the issue is instead that your BH's world is shattered.

hikingout post #33:

It’s very tender to be here as a new ws, and awkwardly flail trying to figure it all out. It IS triggering to hear things here that your bs doesn’t say to you. What you may not realize is that just like you would have been appalled to read this from your ww, many of us aren’t hearing at home what we hear in this forum. I left for a while not being able to look at it anymore.

Sure. But you also know how triggering it is to hear, as a bs or bp a few months after D-Day, the things that foggy waywards say.

Sure. But you also know how triggering it is to hear, as a bs or bp a few months after D-Day, the things that foggy waywards say.

This is not a comparison. I support bs’s sharing their pain. This is not an us versus them situation.

What I am trying to say is she is here to learn and grow and work on herself. We should make her threads a safe place for doing so. She is expressing a common and normal reaction that waywards often feel when they first arrive here.

I would say there are lots of bs here who wish their ws was on a forum like this, working through their thoughts and getting helpful input. This her thread and we should allow her the room she needs to do that.

If nothing else, every wayward who comes here there is a bs somewhere who may benefit from them doing so. Maybe you can find value in that.

People coming in here and making a case as to why she is terrible or should be ashamed of herself, that’s just not the path out of this for any wayward I have ever known. Usually it just makes them go away because they have to wade through the disdain to find any helpful advice in their own thread. And believe me at the stage she is at that disdain ways more.

This is not a 'Why' though, this instead reads to me more like a JUSTIFICATION.

It IS a why.

The why is she didn’t accept herself. Now she can productively work on that. You are only focusing on a snippet of what she said because you think it paints the ap in a better light.

It doesn’t. She is saying that she didn’t feel worthy of higher standards. I get that totally and it was one of my whys.

@HikingOut

As always, you've provided useful context to the mind of WW. Your interpretation of her writings and insight to what she feels maybe more accurate than mine, that being said, I hope you can agree that there are notes here worth of consideration and reflection.

​Points to Consider
​- Her flexible worldview is the enabling mechanism for the betrayal and prevents them from accepting that others maintain non-negotiable principles.
​- The claim that everyone's values are flexible is a coping mechanism to minimize the severity of their specific betrayal.
​- Infidelity is not morally equivalent to minor moral failings like white lies; it represents a profound violation of trust and commitment.
- ​The emotional need for validation does not justify the destructive action of infidelity.
​- True healing requires embracing accountability for the deliberate moral line crossed, not celebrating adaptability.
​- Avoiding the feeling of shame is an attempt to escape the direct cost of betrayal and circumvent accountability.

​Also, more philosophically, if anyone is capable of such moral fallings- what in her opinion leads some to cheat and other to not?

Personally I would find this world view highly nihilistic. If we are all just a cocktail of bad circumstances away from cheating, what the hell is the point of this forum? Just seems like a coping mechanism. A deflection of accountability 'Anyone would cheat if they went through what I didn't well this is evidently not true because millions of people have been through dire circumstances and worse who have not cheated. I personally think my post did a good job of debunking this world view though but then I would say that.

You are right, it is not a comparison, and that is not how I meant it.

What I meant is, the BS is bleeding out it feels like, and the foggy wayward is by their words and actions, likely making it only WORSE for the BS. We are basically telling that, and telling the WS rather strongly to stop the harm. As our empathy is towards the BS who was the one wronged, we are less concerned with the WS and much MUCH more concerned with the BS' healing.

I agree that a Stop Sign would be good for the OP. I'm not sure if the current dynamic is that helpful. We are delivering rather strong feedback, and so you are spending energy trying to soften what we say, as you are pointing out the WS' foggy thinking, which I think, does dilute the message, even if you are still saying everything you intended to say otherwise.

Am I treading the line between self-forgiveness and… I don’t know, letting myself off the hook? (Does that make sense to anyone, or just to me?)

So this is your one original question here. After DRSOOLERS and hikingout replied, I think it turned into two different discussions. Personally, I can see value in both of those responses.

What is the place of shame, remorse, and guilt? I understand hikingout's and pippin's responses about it not being helpful in the situation. I've read Brene Brown. Yet I agree with some of DRSOOLERS's points. There probably is a place in society for shame and a reason it existed and was helpful. That's my own opinion, but I really don't think about it too much.

The other discussion is about values and how they are made and how flexible they can be. Frankly, Ghostie I think this part of the discussion and your last response to DRSOOLERS about all of us having flexible values and that being a strength is where the answer to the original question is, "Yes. I think you are letting yourself off the hook." I agree with most of DRSOOLERS' points on that subject. I think I know my boundaries and myself well enough to say I won't do certain things under any circumstance and those relate to my values. Hey, maybe it's not infidelity; or it wasn't before I experienced it anyway. If I'm not 100% on that personally, I can still understand if it is a strong boundary for others. I trust they know themselves. I can say I will never sexually abuse a child. I can say I will never have sex with an animal. I just don't think my values are that flexible.