I found this very interesting, took me a while to engage because the stop sign in removal and a lot of other matters to attend. This deserves a bit more attention than the usual because there is a lot of nuance worthy of internalizing and digest, and along it there’s a substantial risk of creating constructs that will not make us more open in the extremely difficult task to look into ourselves, opening up to insight, wisdom and criticism while keeping a grounded grip on our own situation (hard call for someone living currently in emotional chaos).
The way how I see it, if you can get through this question with detached understanding, this is actual information gold, it can give you a framework to decode the emotional environment and respond to it.
The flip side is that if you allow yourself to identify with this exercise, you run the risk to not just decode, but encode the conclusions into your ego, which may start to reflect them as a tool to shield itself against any perceived threat to its essence, because that’s the ego’s purpose, which in this case is likely counterproductive, it can easily lead to assumptions, dogma, compartmentalization.
For the ego is at the root of the infidelity mess. What changes is if we are working to cracking the ego, or trying to rebuild its shattered fragments in a way that will be functional to us and our partners and not dysfunctional.
I think I have to define what I mean by Ego because it is likely differing in part or all, from the common acception one may have, I know that is different from my old understanding of Ego and without definition my past self would probably not understand "what " is the meaning behind it entirely.
And the last thing that matters is a diatribe of Egos fighting on the battlefield of semantics, sophisms and self righteousness (because that is the exact result the flip side brings, and the one I wish to warn against). At least it’s the last thing that matters to me, every Ego is super happy to engage in such endeavors for they are his job description, the main reason why they even exist.
Those are battlefield are an exhibition reserved for scholars, not for openness which is what I think we want to reach here. So they can stay with the scholars, if you understand it, you understand that there is no point here to show "education" the point is to ‘connect’ into understanding what is being said.
What do I mean by "Ego":
I call Ego the presented to the outside world, manifestation of an identity we constructed to interface with the other humans that is supposed to both project the best image of ourselves (as we imagine it) and at the same time, protect our "inner self" (the most intimate you, soul and emotions, the "I") from my external threat or assault that can cause us pain or harm.
It’s both a mask and a filter, that allow us to interface with others as we are wearing gloves, contacting without actually touching.
As the mask or glove probes and find that the other person’s own mask seems reasonably safe, the filters opens up gradually, bit by bit, allowing glimpses of our true self to reach out, and if that’s reciprocated in kind, this can lead to a true connection. The mask is rarely if ever truly off, but as we feel safe we allow more and more skin contact without gloves with the other person. We do that to the extent we feel comfortable with this individual, because the guard drops and leaves us vulnerable to them (and them to us, in kind).
Now the ego can be wounded, but the only one truly capable of wounding (or killing it) is the "self" its creator. One "can" wound someone else’s ego, but only indirectly. You get through the masks defenses and connect with the inner self as much as you are allowed, then you inflict a wound on the "self".
Depending just how deep that is, wether a sting or a painful injury, then the self will hold the Ego accountable for failing to protect, the go will react by tightening against the "offense" if it’s just a sting, like hitting a nerve, or if the wound was harsh it might go in shambles, even shatter into pieces.
Imagine it as the protective layer of skin and fat and muscles is the ego, and what’s inside is you.
The more relaxed the ego, the more vulnerable you are, but only in that state you can really connect and experience the world directly.
Also I don’t think the ego is anything negative or positive, it’s a sort of tool. It can be really useful for our survival and mental health in the daily life, when you interact with the world willingly or forced, this tools allows you to protect your inner self without having to run away from others because you are vulnerable, naked.
Maybe more than skins and muscles is better to say it’s like a dress you wear and show. It’s not a single identity either, it’s a collage of many indentities, you present the facets that best fits the situation.
Now we are not born with it, we are born with the "I " emotions and boundaries even before we learn words. We build our ego as both a shield from pain, a cloth for protection and a way to moderate our natural inclinations that might become excesses if left unchecked.
And we keep tailoring it and improving it as we grow up. Events in our lives do shape it too, as it’s a reactive shield that we tinker with.
We grow so fond of this construct that very often we become to feel a pull to identify with it (but only when we are in chaos we allow to merge, unless there’s a deeper dysfunction).
But the ego is not us, is a projection that exist only as manifestation of our wishes.
Now while is neither bad or good by default, there is something the Ego is absolutely addicted to, because it feeds of it: external validation.
It’s our creation as "the best guess" of what identity that is meant to represent us, is the most appealing to others. And we don’t have any other measure to size it really, we can’t know if our guess was good or bad until it receives feedback.
So when it gets validated our own nerve system feels relief, we can seven get dopamine boost as when you passed an anxiety inducing exam and succeeded while you weren’t sure if you were prepared at all.
When it doesn’t get validated it reacts, with avoidance if it is a rare event, or with a back to the drawing board if the negative feedback is enough to crack it.
This isn’t a change in yourself really, is a tweaking of the ego because "maybe the identity I present doesn’t really convey quite right who I am or what I hope others see".
And depending about the emotional state those situations cause there are commonly found patterns (finally latching to the OP topic) where the reactions lead the next evolution of the Ego.
Before getting to the pattern thing, one last word about this above understanding of mine:
I said the Ego isn’t bad nor good, it’s also not real, just a projection and an identity, more of a puzzle of several identities we built to answer to many situations. Is useful, but we aren’t as great as we think in making the end result meeting our hopes, and it is also tricky, for it’s validation hungry.
Some validation is positive for our inner self, because it is relaxing and it actually lowers the guard of the Ego (allowing more glimpses of us throug and more glimpses of others in, because it feels safe).
But the Ego can also begin crave validation when we aren’t developed enough to separate ourselves from the mask and how others react to the mask.
If we are stuck in that loop we may end up identifying with the mask and the same dopamine associated with validation becomes an addiction to our ego (inanimate by itself, but now animated by our dysfunctional self identification with it) and the Ego inflates.
This can get so addictive for a person that they lose touch and embrace and double down on this identity, so we can get by proxy more validation dopamine.
It’s still not us, just the Ego, but the feeling is intoxicating enough that you can get lost in it. Think of all those celebrities of any kind and people on social media. They "lose it" because a functional mechanism of protection becomes dysfunctional source of chemical oblivion.
—- allow me some time to finish this I will edit it soon and get to the point —-
Concluding this preamble, when we find a deep connection, like a relationship, our ego guard is at its lowest if the relationship is already safe as long term are, and a huge portion of our true self is shared with our partners because it seeps through the filter, the valve is open.
This is different from earlier romantic relationships, because we aren’t yet possibly feeling safe, so the Ego is still tight and high ply excited for it is: a self+ ego testing ground, a positive validation farm and thus a a "high risk - high reward" for both our ego (initially) and our inner self (as with safety slowly the mask drops and we finally receive love and validation directly to our innermost self).
While love grows the "excitement " fades because a real connection is for once established and when something feels safe the ego (getting the most validation excitement) is lowered and takes a step back in the background.
Mind that’s not making a relationship dull or not exciting, not at all if it’s alive and nourished is even more vibrant and exciting.
We simply are so used to perceiving the world through the Ego that we are seeing the contrast between that masked perception and our real direct connection.
The ego is driven by validation excitement, when we pull it down because there is no more risk and we can safely be "naked" with our partner, we feel that excitement dissipate for the ego is put in sleep mode between us.
There is a greater excitement once we learn to embrace our true selves and allow our inner I to merge with the significant person, but that’s a topic that will go way off track, just pointing this out for completion. We miss the ego validation’s as "excitement" and what we miss feels more relevant than what we have, but it’s a underdeveloped illusion caused by contrast and habit, not by true void and missing out.
I know it’s a long premise but I felt important to describe where I come from to address this interesting topic.
Last last thing: the trauma and attachment wound from infidelity comes when our egos dysfunctionally for whatever reason wake up and change the rules of the relationship again from connection into external validation craving. One ego wake up and reverts to old patterns (devolves in some sense) and create a clone of an internal mask to replace the true connection. The injured part still connected gets wounded deeply, the ego and identity shatters because it failed to protect and the fragments get turned back on as a wall and defense, but they are in chaos now because the "self" was wounded and they have to confront the other ego who offended them, without even realizing that it was resurrected and replaced the other partner’s "self" who they believe was still connected.
That is one pattern that I see constantly in infidelity matters.
Now about the rest. patterns:
Ok, hear me out ...
I want to float something out there that’s been on my mind. I’ve been around this community long enough to see how it shifts over time, and lately I’ve noticed something on the wayward side that feels a little … lopsided.
Indeed I noticed that too, I haven’t been nearly as long but I saw kind of "trends" alternating. I think it’s very likely what you observed is factual.
We’ve had a wave of wayward wives posting, and most of the responses are coming from either betrayed husbands, or other WWs who immediately show up with high empathy, validation, and shared-experience support (sometimes mirrors) ... It is beautiful to see WWs showing up for each other, offering a safe harbor free of judgment and there's nothing wrong with BH input. Some of the most grounding advice I ever got came from BHs who weren’t afraid to tell me the truth straight. I found myself wanting their input to gain useful insight.
But I’m also noticing that the balance of voices has changed, and it’s affecting how conversations unfold. Do not mistake what I am implying, your willingness to show up, process your pain, and still offer hard truths is invaluable.
Its just we used to have much more of a mix of voices here.
I think we lose something when the mix of voices gets too narrow. That mix mattered. It gave nuance. It gave perspective. It gave balance. It meant a WS could get trauma informed insight from a BH, emotional landscape insight from a BW, and guidance from a WH to show what male accountability looks like.
Subscribe to this. There was a period where there were more wayward husbands contributing and that was important for the reasons you listed, but I also feel like it was helpful for wayward wives not to feel "alone" on the side that is showing guilt and remorse because to write her you need to show at least some vulnerability, - mostly valid for when the thing is fresh - but that vulnerability also leaves exposed to contempt, and "feeling alone" in this can build up stressors. When wayward husbands were more present they also shared this load against contempt (not necessarily coming from BSes although that happens) and they respond or react often in different ways.
That’s probably feeling as a bigger loss becoming when a pattern starts emerging unavoidably some bias can follow and what felt like constructive criticism when the "load" was shared, might be perceived as more targeted, because you may stop feeling as individually challenged on the merit and more as "vented upon" mainly for the reason of ‘belonging to a group’, so that skews the reception and perception of what you receive.
Mind you this is a natural tendency and feeling, you can see traces of it even in The OP when you divide by group. (See below)
It doesn’t mean it is malicious but definitely our brains are wired for pattern recognition and when we see them it’s more challenging to keep separated the observed patterns from the actual situation (as in for example a personal disclosure).
It also doesn’t mean the patterns aren’t there (I concur with the observation) it means that we might allow them to influence our perception and judgement if we can’t always detach from patter recognition (this is pattern x) and the case we are examining (as in this pattern does not apply to this here).
Now the dynamic is more like
WW posts
BH responds
BW occasionally responds
WH … somewhere in the witness protection program
And this specific dynamic, WWs posting and primarily BHs responding, creates a unique bubble. When the majority of responses come from one trauma profile, the advice naturally leans toward certain themes.
And when this specific loop becomes the dominant dynamic, we run into a tricky psychological trap.
Agree. I see it as well.
And there is even more than a single trap, which doesn’t work one way but goes two ways and often nullifies the potential benefit that some exchanges might offer for the person who asks for it.
Pattern recognition is a huge part of how this community works. We look for signs of rugsweeping, defensiveness, trickle truth, minimization, all the usual suspects. That’s helpful. It keeps waywards honest. It keeps us from slipping into old habits.
The issue is that pattern recognition can turn into pattern expectation.
It is an issue when it becomes expectation indeed.
And when it becomes such, you run into the risk of expecting the expectation, which in turn can sometimes distract you from seeing if it is true pattern expectation or a warning to avoid falling into the expected pattern.
If it sounds convoluted is because I don’t know how to describe it in few words (not in English), but the idea behind is simple, I hope is readable and understandable
Yes, waywards absolutely follow a script.
You did. I did. Every WW and WH who shows up follows the same predictable emotional, cognitive, and behavioral patterns. The affair script is universal.
But the healing script is not.
Every wayward follows the same beats
compartmentalization
justification
avoidance
secrecy
conflict‑avoidance
self‑protection
minimization
"I never thought I’d be someone who…"
"It wasn’t who I really am"
"I didn’t mean to hurt anyone"
It’s the same movie with different actors.
You can spot it instantly because you lived it. I can spot it instantly because I lived it. That part is universal.
I would say that also betrayed partners follow a script. There are patterns that are very common, not because we lack individuality, but because we are humans. That’s why waywards follow a script and BSes follow a parallel one.
But the marriage, the timeline, the internal work, and the identity process are not universal.
This is where nuance matters.
Two waywards can follow the same affair script but have
different marriages
different attachment wounds
different conflict styles
different BS responses
different levels of introspection
different therapeutic progress
different emotional regulation skills
different identity structures
So yes, the affair behavior is universal.
But the healing journey is not.
It’s a very important point and where pattern recognition can be useful. The healing journey must be your journey, wether you are a WS or a BS. The patterns we look for are real and they are to be avoided not to fall into a false path of healing and make sure you have your own individual focus.
When you look at patterns they are a thing to consider so you can stay away from them, so you can step out from it hijacking your healing journey.
The idea to follow patterns is flawed, they are a reaction and reactions are not integration.
To heal you have to integrate many different things, you listed some and there are many. A pattern doesn’t integrate, it encodes repetition that are outside your control, for they are not active responses, just reactions.
I would not call anyone’s journey "a pattern " simply because they can’t be, they are too nuanced. I would advise to understand the patterns and watch out for them to keep them out of your journey.
You don’t follow them, you may fall into them though.
Waywards need accountability, absolutely. But we also need guidance on "the work". Things like shadow work, emotional regulation, rewiring patterns, ego recognition, and remorse. Those pieces don’t always come through when the feedback loops lean heavily toward one side of the infidelity experience.
I’m not suggesting anyone stop responding or that anyone is doing anything wrong. I’m simply suggesting that the wayward side works best when there’s a mix of voices. When advice is sharp and honest, but also individualized. When we can hold people accountable without assuming. When EVERYONE stays curious.
I’d love to see more balance again. More WHs stepping out of the shadows. More BWs sharing their perspective. More variety in how we talk about healing and change.
I can only second this, the variety helps in keeping the separation between pattern recognition and expectation, because the diversity of voices itself is enough to break the expectation. The silence and emotional stress on the other hand breeds expectations.
So instead of being wary about patterns (the one recognized) you paradoxically may start mirroring them because you expect them to show up. Is kind of backfiring.
It needs a additional effort of detachment to integrate when this happens.
Anyway, that’s my thought. Not a complaint, not a callout, just something I’ve noticed as the community has shifted. If we want this space to be one where real transformation happens, we need accountability, but we also need nuance and a variety of voices.
I’d love to hear your thoughts on this,
It’s actually a pretty good call to ponder on this because part of the shift of "the vibe" you have noticed is likely stemming from the reaction to the pattern expectation.
And it’s subtle enough that it might be difficult to spot if we aren’t paying attention. A variety of voices is best because it naturally regulates both the tendency and reaction to this expectation.
As long as it is in the witness protection program, we need to put a bit of extra care in detachment, or consider to avoid some interactions if that’s too taxing.
To the WWs, when you get tough feedback, does it hit differently depending on whether it comes from a fellow WS or a BH? Do you ever feel like a proxy for a BH's unvented anger?
Obviously this is for them to say, I can only provide my impression based on few observations (wether I angaged or not doesn’t matter, I read a lot because is a place of learning to me, I try to not engage when the emotional load might be too overwhelming, unless it’s to comfort someone):
I have the impression that the feedback from a Betrayed Male is the trickiest to receive from a Wayward Wife.
In a sense, if the feedback is positive or comforting I have the impression that it’s as appreciated as the similar supportive feedback from a fellow wayward. I also had few times the impression that supportive feedback from Betrayed Wives seems especially important to WW, moreover than from WS or Betrayed Men, but this is a impression based on few specific examples I observed (BW are not very present here lately) so I can’t say if it’s grounded or just individual responses that I came across.
On the other hand I have the feeling that "negative " feedback hits differently. I don’t mean negative as in lashing out (though that happens and isn’t helpful in my opinion), I mean it as critical feedback.
Which I think is the most useful for a wayward wife specifically: support is nice and makes you feel understood especially when you show vulnerability. But criticism from the other side can be eye opening in many ways.
Is the side we may want or we are trying to reconnect with, so whatever comes out is potentially gold if we are trying to remediate to some big wrong we caused.
On the other hand, I had the impression it can be more "triggering " because (my intuition here) it almost feels like another man is trying to "intrude" between the relationship of the WW and her BH.
Which I don’t think is often the case, I seen harsh criticism from some users, but I read it as disclosing an insight into the "male side" as they are empathetic to the BH the WW is trying to reconcile with.
That’s not always the case, many times I see WW taking even harsh criticism well (and I imagine it hurts), but sometimes I see antagonistic reactions to even mild criticism and I wonder if it might be exactly the pattern expectation playing a role in part here.
For sure if I were to bet, I’d say this is the most emotionally loaded scenario. (Not lastly because WW are recently the only one sharing so they are the most exposed).
To the BHs, do you ever catch yourself responding to a WW poster through the exact lens of what your own wife did to you, rather than what the poster is actually writing?
I am a betrayed male but that was long before becoming husband to my wayward, I am not sure that I qualify technically, but I think in spirit as I am still after all a betrayed partner. 
So responding as I pass the qualification anyway!
No, I never caught myself responding to a wayward as she was my wife.
Because I am very detached from what is my story and what is the reality these women are living here. Second because I don’t believe it can be of any use to the woman I am responding to.
What I think it could help is my intuition about "how a man works through pain" and how they could show/hide it from her, and in a far minor part, my own experience with betrayal trauma may give them some insight on what to look for/against in their journey. I say this matter way less because, like you, I am convinced that even if the script is the same, the people and their individual stories couldn’t be more different.
So no I don’t do that even when I share my private business.
What I find extremely valuable in interacting with Wayward Wives specifically, is the kind of insight they can give me about their experience.
This was very useful to deconstruct some ideas I had conceived during my woman’s betrayals, providing me with understanding and some empathy to understand that there are some specific flaws that led her astray and that they can be mitigated or changed, so I can at least have a compass to see where she is truly putting effort.
That also made me more compassionate towards her in many ways.
I value wayward wives insights more than wayward men, because I can relate and understand the issues with male betrayal far better than female betrayal. I know the roots and scripts are almost identical, but while I get guys easier, the WW side was always a bit more of a puzzle.
I am learning and getting a lot from it. Especially when it is hard to digest. It helps my growth.
Also this is not entirely altruistic (though the empathy is genuine): I think that if I can help them through though, uncomfortable stuff (unspoken truths we may ‘hide’ from our partners because they are hard to share) they might perhaps some day "return the favor" and help me out to understand the though, hard stuff that my wayward might find hard to share. At least the reasons behind (not the details obviously).
So when I engage I have a similar approach in mind, thinking that my input can be useful to them as there is to me. This assumption my very well be my own pattern expectation (you help me, I might help you)
I am learning that’s most likely a logical trap and that’s not really the case quite often.
It used to be better, and I wonder if the emerging pattern might not be playing a role here lately.
That’s why I will be mindful to reduce the engagement and only observe until the tides shift again at least.
It’s a place of help, if you can not help even if you want, the best course of action and most helpful is simply stepping away.
To the WHs in hiding, what would it take for you to step out of the shadows and share your experiences more?
I miss the input from the boys too, I think their mirror will be also of extreme help to Betrayed Wives (they may actually help each other in the same way of the above, this is what I believe).
I have the feeling that WH tend to come here for advice and some emotional support, but when they gathered insight they seem more focused into trying to fix by actions their situation, so they still check in, but more rarely.
It would be very useful if they would be more present but I do understand the inclination and sentiment because it is very similar how I and most guys I know, do go through life.
Anyway. Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.
It was a very good one…. But you forgot the poor Betrayed Wives in the closing bit!
[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 8:02 PM, Sunday, July 19th]
